Preparing for Court: The Do's and Don'ts

Join lizabeth A. Stephenson and Sarah J. Hink from New Direction Family Law as they delve into crucial insights for clients preparing to testify in family court. Alongside Cam, their coordinator, they discuss the intricacies of courtroom procedures, the importance of honest and concise testimony, and how to handle cross-examinations and character witnesses. From what to wear to how to manage your emotions, gain valuable advice on presenting yourself effectively in court. Whether it's a custody case, financial disputes, or spousal support, this episode covers everything you need to know to navigate your court appearance with confidence.

00:00 Introduction to New Direction Family Law
00:57 Preparing Clients for Testimony
01:46 Courtroom Basics and Client Preparation
03:36 Direct and Cross-Examination Tips
06:46 Character and Expert Witnesses
09:54 Handling Emotions and Courtroom Etiquette
11:08 The Importance of Genuine Emotions in Court
11:23 Challenges Judges Face in Determining Credibility
11:51 Handling Lies and Perjury in Court
13:56 Using Text Messages and Emails as Evidence
15:52 The Dangers of Faking Evidence
17:16 Respecting Court Protocol and Behavior
17:46 Financial Testimonies and Document Familiarity
18:51 The Waiting Game for Court Rulings
19:49 Preparing for Cross-Examination
21:43 Character Witness Preparation

Creators and Guests

Host

Cameron Heinsohn

Marketing & Business Development Manager

Host

Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW

Attorney/Partner, Parent Coordinator, & Collaborative Lawyer at New Direction Family Law

Host

Sarah J. Hink

Attorney/Partner at New Direction Family Law

Producer

Joe Woolworth

Owner of Podcast Cary in Cary, NC. Your friendly neighborhood podcast studio.

What is Ex-it Strategy?

Your no bullsh$t guide to divorce with experienced attorneys from New Direction Family Law and guests and professionals who have been there. Unfiltered discussions to help you move from victim to victorious and from bitter to better.

76 - Ex-it Strategy
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[00:00:00]

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Hi, Elizabeth Stevenson with New Direction Family Law.

Sarah J. Hink: And Sarah Hink, also a new direction Family law. We have Cam, also Kim New Direction Family. Family Law. Not an attorney, but she coordinates us getting to the podcast and our topics so we couldn't be here without her. That's absolutely true.

Cameron Heinsohn: And I work a lot on the like client side of things too, so I can.

I ask a lot of the same questions that clients would ask because I'm not an attorney, so Yeah.

Sarah J. Hink: Especially their, their first thoughts and questions when they're reaching out to an attorney. Yeah. Which are very valuable, especially as attorneys who, you know, just go to the law part when we start talking to clients.

Correct. Yes. What are we talking about today, Ms. Inc? Oh, that's me. Oh, yep. We are talking about preparing our clients [00:01:00] for their testimony. Correct. So you have your court case coming up, you know, discussions of settlement and workouts. Yep. I, it's custody maybe. Maybe it's property or financial, like spousal support.

There's lots of different, you know, topics that might find you in court to correct. Take your testimony. It's always funny when I have clients ask me, so do I have to testify? Do I, do I need to be there? I'm like, yes, that would be helpful. A lot of times I'm like, you know what? It is like law and order. Yes, you do need to be there.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: It's sort of, but it's kinda like that. I mean, you have to show up and. You know, it is a courtroom and there's a bench and there's the judge and the clerk, and

Cameron Heinsohn: there's a table. Very rarely jury, right. Just, just the judge. Yeah. You can't have

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: a jury trial alimony like alienation,

Cameron Heinsohn: affection or something like

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: that.

Those are really the only two areas. Yeah. And so, you know, sort of the basics are, the layout is there's a table in front of the judge. You sit with me, my client sits with me, and then the other side's on the other side. So you're pretty close in proximity.

Sarah J. Hink: Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: The big thing is I tell people is. [00:02:00] It's an open, you know, we have open courts, so you're gonna be spilling all your private stuff up there and there gonna be these people in the audience, but they don't really care about you 'cause they got their own shit going on.

Sarah J. Hink: No, and you know some people, some of my clients I recommend, if they seem really nervous about it, I go tell them to go to courthouse and go observe other trials. Um, I think it's a good experience if you're really nervous about it to see what happens. 'cause if we do, we do the family court cases all on the same floor in Wake County.

So just pick a day they'll be hearing, well go to your judge. Yeah. We have

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: assigned judges. So go to your assigned judge and you get sort of a feel of their personality Mm. Too on that. So for

Sarah J. Hink: sure. That's a good

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: experience. Go do your homework. Absolutely. I mean, something as basic as what do I wear? Mm-hmm.

You know, we'll talk we talk a lot about testimony and exhibits, but the basics are. Making you feel comfortable and you know, that's what you don't have to wear suit, you know, wear a collared shirt, wear a skirt, do not wear, um, what do I call 'em? Daisy Dukes. [00:03:00] Daisy Dukes. Yeah. Don't wear daisy Duke. Don't wear daisy dukes.

Don't wear tank top. Don't have your cleavage out. Yeah, don't wear a hat. You know, don't, no hats, just don't, don't do that. You know, don't wear, don't wear flip flops, that kind thing. Yeah. I

Sarah J. Hink: mean, I pretty much just simplify it. Tell them, tell my clients that you're there to tell the court and the judge your story.

Correct. Side story. That's exactly what it is.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: So. Mm-hmm. You know, be comfortable while you're doing that. Um,

Sarah J. Hink: make eye contact with a judge. Right. If they're listening. Sometimes I'm like,

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: well, well, they have a computer up there. I think they do listen, but they're typing in their notes too sometimes, you know?

Yeah, I can, but the, but the process, I think, too is important to know how it works. Yeah. Is that. Um, if you're the one that filed the motion, whether you're plaintiff or defendant, you're gonna put on your evidence first, for the most part, not contempt. That's for another day. Yeah. And so you're gonna call all your witnesses up there, but each witness, um, gets a direct examination and then the direct is from your attorney.

Correct. So that'd be your attorney asking you questions. And those are open-ended. I cannot. [00:04:00] They're who, what, why, when, where. Yep. You know, not that really

Sarah J. Hink: is you telling your story. That is

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: so you need to review your notes, your journals. We try to send them the exhibits ahead of time so they can review those.

'cause you don't want have their facts straight. Right. So don't, well, and when did that happen? I don't remember. Does not seem credible. No, it never does. And the other

Sarah J. Hink: side, if it's a good attorney, we'll pick up on that. Pick up on that and call you out. For it. Correct. So you don't wanna clam up so much that you do not give those full answers to your attorney.

So I know there's times where I've gone over testimony beforehand, but still the client just doesn't have the personality to really open up on the stand. And it's like pulling teeth, just trying to get them to say the information you want them to and need them to. Or it

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: could be just the opposite where please stop, stop talking.

Yeah. My advice is, answer the question. Only Yes. If I need more information, I'll ask you for more information. Right. And I'm,

Sarah J. Hink: yes. And I remind them about

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: we are timed. I say that to them. Now we're in a time crunch, so let's just, I'm, I'm gonna point you in this direction kind of thing. So what

Sarah J. Hink: that means, for [00:05:00] instance, is on a temporary hearing for custody in Wake County, you get two hours.

And so your side gets one hour and they are literally stop clocking you. So if you have a tendency to ramble, you are gonna eat up all of your time. It's not gonna be relevant. You're just like all of a sudden talking about something that happened on 4th of July five years ago at your grandma's house, and your attorney is like shaking their head, telling you to wrap up.

Well, you've gotta pay attention.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Right, right. Because they've cut you off and you know, we're, we're done. So, um, and then the other side, the defense attorney. Who represents the other party, gets an opportunity to ask you questions. And what happens when that happens, Sarah?

Sarah J. Hink: I was gonna expect it to be a bit more aggressive.

Mm-hmm. They're gonna ask you direct questions, yes or no questions. You don't always. Isn't it true? Yeah. Isn't it true? Wouldn't you agree with me? Isn't that right?

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: So true or false? And they wanna lead you down a path they'll get you sometimes to answer very easy questions and you're going, la, la, la, la, la.

And then they get ask you a question and you're just answering. Yes, yes, yes. What I know in [00:06:00] my head, that is not what you told me. And I know that's not true, right? So I

Sarah J. Hink: always tell my clients, take your time, take a listen. Ask them to repeat the question if you need to. If, if you don't know, you don't know.

Yeah. Don't make up answers. Yeah. That happens to people. I think people have a tendency to do that, so you don't want to answer a question, especially people pleasers if you have that personality. Mm-hmm. Like, don't make up an answer. Don't try to guess what the answer is. Right. I don't know. Right. If you don't remember, you don't remember.

That's not right. Right. That's not how I remember it. Right, right. Exactly.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Yeah. And then, um, and, and you get a chance to explain your answer. Mm-hmm. Just answer yes or no first. If it's a yes or no, que then explain your answer. And then we get a chance to sort of what I call clean up, come back, clarify, and clean up.

Yeah. And anything we need to sort of touch on that you may need a little more clarification on.

Sarah J. Hink: Yep.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: And so we're done with you. And then generally for custody, um, it's character witnesses a lot. Mm-hmm. Um, for parents. Um, I served as a character witness once I did. Yeah.

Cameron Heinsohn: The one brother. Yeah.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Yeah. And [00:07:00] so, you know, you're up there saying what a great dad they are.

My philosophy is do not get up there and bash this other, that's not the point is to bash the other parent. The, the point is, is to show what a great parent you are, put you in the spotlight. You could, we're gonna get to the negative part of it and his, in his testimony only if you actually

Sarah J. Hink: witnessed an act that was not right.

Right. We know he is an asshole, but that's not what we're here about today. You know, none unless you wi an actual asshole event. Right. That you can testify to. Right.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: But, but they can be neighbors, they can be um, parents, they can be, teachers can come in and testify. Oh, she shows up all the time. You know, she's a parent.

Mm-hmm. Um, volunteer. She's the one that picks up every time. New spouses. When's the, when? Have you ever seen dad? I think I saw him in the office one time. Yeah. That's a great witness. You know, they're not testifying about these, these are not testifying about who should have custody. That's not their job.

Their job is to give facts about. Who takes the better care of the mm-hmm. Child, I think. Right. And then there are expert witnesses. And so what's the [00:08:00] difference in, in like a therapist coming to testify, let's say, so

Sarah J. Hink: a therapist can testify as an expert if you get them to be an expert through your foundation, but they can also just be a lay witness as well.

Correct. So a lay witness is someone that's just gonna testify of what they have observed. Right. And their actual, you know, interactions with people. And then an expert witness is gonna have testimony put forth that's based on. Something in their background. You know, if it's a therapist, their actual knowledge of what they, they can actually make recommendations or tell the court what they observed and what they think based on what they observed.

And give actual, you know, more than just what they, they saw their own eyes. Mm-hmm. Right. And because the child said this, I have concerns about dad debt. Right. Um, so that's the difference

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: really. Right. And the other thing that frustrates clients a lot in what we talk about in hearing prep. That I get, you know, they'll pass me a sticky note or they wanna say this.

It's like, I can't, there are only, there are rules of evidence. Mm-hmm. And so there are certain things that [00:09:00] I can get in and let the court hear and certain things I can't, like, you can't tell me what your kid said to you unless your child is coming to testify. Unless there's an exception of mm-hmm. Like hearsay exception.

And that's very frustrating for people. And so we practice that testimony well. And can you share with me what, what was knowing your child as you do what, how would you describe her demeanor? Mm-hmm. You know, that's sort of mm-hmm. And that's why you do hearing prep, so they understand the rules of evidence and understand our frustration too, and not being able to get certain things in Right.

Documents or, you know, I get sticky notes, ask about this. It's like, I can't, because, you know, that person isn't here to testify and it, it ties your hand sometimes. Yeah. And it's very frustrating.

Sarah J. Hink: Although I think I, the note I get written the most on those notepads, that's not true. Yeah. That's bullshit.

Yeah.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Speaking of the other point is, um, we will give you a, you get a legal pad. You've sitting at the table with me, you got a pen. But do not. If you're gonna write me a note, do not scribble it. [00:10:00] Yeah.

Sarah J. Hink: And don't, don't talk. And I tell them before them, like you, you write your whatever your thoughts are down.

Right. Write 'em down. 'cause I'm listening to whatever's going on in court. Correct. And if you're talking to me, it's really hard to listen to two people, but I can't multitask with reading and listening. Just not listening with two. Two years at the same time, correct? That's correct. So that's why you get the notepad to write those notes down.

Um, can help with cross examination. But don't be surprised if I don't ask any of the questions you're writing down for me to ask the other time.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Sometimes I do because there's some that hit and some that I would think didn't, but did. So I, I don't have a kind of a problem asking a lot of questions that that clients ask me to ask.

Yeah. And the other thing that judges hate is. The rolling of the eyes, the ruing and that, that happens more with people that are there as character witnesses. Especially like if your, if your new spouse is there, or your mom's there, or your dad's there, you know, they'll, mm-hmm. They're vested as much as you are, but you can't show any of that emotion in, in court.

You just can't. Mm-hmm. You know, it's okay to cry on the [00:11:00] stand. I'm okay with that. Yeah. Don't. Lose your shit, you know?

Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. And, you know, think this, this court, this, the judge, they see families in there all the time. Right. Testimony. And they have their own bullshit meter. So you don't wanna come off like too not truthful with your emotions.

Yes. So just make sure that, that whatever's happening is just a real emotion, just based on the topic that you're talking about. Because

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: sometimes that's all we have mm-hmm. Is all the judges hear sometimes, especially in a temporary hearing 'cause it's limited to an hour or two. Mm-hmm. Is to look at these people that they have never met before and determine who is telling them the truth.

Mm-hmm. And who is more credible. Yep. And that's, that's gotta be a little hard are you can, can you imagine?

Cameron Heinsohn: Yeah.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: I mean, and, and you're the fourth. Set of people he's had to do that with today. Today, yeah.

Sarah J. Hink: And he's got attorneys, or she's got attorneys in her ear, correct. Arguing about whatever, you know, it, it's tough for the judges to do that, but people do lie on the stand and they do get away with it too all the

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: time.

They [00:12:00] lie on the stand all the time. All the time. And

Sarah J. Hink: know the judge does not throw, they're in jail for perjury.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: No, they're not. Even though you're writing perjury on your Yeah. Do you you to jail for that? I'm like, no, I have that. You know, it's just In hearing prep mean, those are just some of the. One of them again is people lie all the time, you know, and you're just gonna have to take it and we'll have to do our best on cross to figure out how to deal with that.

Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. You know, and like you said before, I think there's a level of respect for when an attorney and their client do take that high road and just focus on the highs of them as a parent and, you know, obviously highlight some concerns of the other parent. Oh yeah, absolutely. But then if the other side comes in as just all dirt and mud, like really based on nothing but their own like feelings or taking things outta context, context, that's not gonna look good.

And the judges don't wanna see that. 'cause in their head they're going, well, this person's probably a, you know. Not a fun person to co-parent with over here. Right, right. Over here. Exactly. So that will really diminish your own argument inside if you just spend all the time in the mud on your [00:13:00] case. Right.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: we use a lot of text messages, we use a lot of emails [00:14:00] and for evidence. Mm-hmm. Uhhuh. So my advice is you better not send anything you don't want Read out loud in court. Yeah. Because it will, it will definitely be read out loud in court. Talk about credibility. That's

Sarah J. Hink: right.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: What you

Sarah J. Hink: said the other, you know, other

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: month.

Yeah. And so, you know, we had, we use what I amazing and other I don't want, 'cause people used to just selectively send you text messages, the ones they wanted you to see and Right. They're not in your exhibit notebook. But the other ones they didn't want you to see are in the. Defense's notebook. And so I wanna see all of it.

And you're gonna have to be honest and upfront and send it all to us.

Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. So we know what to expect and how to defend the things that you

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: said. That's, I don't want surprises I have. That's the worst feeling in the world when a cly testifies to something. Well, just difficult if you don't know a thing about it.

I mean, to put

Cameron Heinsohn: together like an articulate argument. Like when you're caught off guard, like by information? No. Correct. Just sit down on

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: your, your chair there, but there's nothing wrong. I mean, you, I mean, it, it's hard. I [00:15:00] mean, in my own separation, my ex was one of those that would write four page emails, you know, and you want to, and my first response is, I need to answer all of that.

You don't, don't do it. You know, let them be the crazy one. But if you, if you have a bad night and you call, call 'em out. Then testify to, I always say throw yourself on the sword and testify to it, and then explain why you did it. Yeah. And say, I, I know that was wrong. And then you show from then on there wasn't another one like that.

So you're,

Sarah J. Hink: that's okay. We're all human. That's why we, yeah, and that's why we have to see all of it, because they might cherry pick the time where you called 'em an asshole, but they didn't show the text messages before where he just, you know, paraded, you paraded, passive aggressiveness, just demeaned you, what have you.

So that's why we really need to see everything so that we. We can show what was happening, right? Show the context, right?

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: And you wanna be. Upfront and honest about any, anything that's bad that's out in the public or marital misconduct because they're, they could bring a [00:16:00] PI in there and show me something that you haven't told me and don't fake evidence.

Right, Elizabeth? That's right. That's exactly right.

Sarah J. Hink: Elizabeth had a, some run-ins with some

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: people who faked evidence. Yeah. Who were sending emails under other people's names, but didn't tell, my client, didn't know about it, but it came out eventually. So don't try to help the person who's on trial. By by doing something like that.

Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. You know, AI is getting so sharp these days for all kinds of purposes. Um, someone mentioned the other day like using AI to fake someone's voice and leaving a, well I Rubio or so, you know, it's

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: like they did an AI of him to other country. It's like it's, it's,

Cameron Heinsohn: it's gonna be so difficult to start to filter through what's, to see what's real and what's

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: not.

'cause you can do it with emails you can set up. Bummer emails or whatever, and now you could do voice. They, this was a voice recording that they had done and spoofed and left a voicemail's insane. Super scary. All of us attorneys have to sharpen our, yeah, we gotta sharpen our skills too. That's absolutely true.

That'd be a good lunch and learn. [00:17:00] Yeah,

Sarah J. Hink: it would. Yeah. Trying to spot, you know, fake Yeah. Fake things out there that you might use in court, because that eventually looks bad on us. Absolutely. But we might not know. Yeah. But, um,

Cameron Heinsohn: um, so sorry,

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: we,

Sarah J. Hink: we went off way off our

Cameron Heinsohn: topic. So what I'm hearing is, sorry about that.

Um, have some respect for the court, both in your behavior and how you're dressed. Absolutely, yes. Be truthful. Both like with what you say on the stand and what you've shared with your attorney. Yeah. Take a breath, try to stay calm.

Right. And be genuine to who you are. Right, exactly. Like own your mistakes if you've made them. Absolutely. Make eye contact with the judge when you can like, and just give your testimony. All you gotta do is tell

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: the truth and tell your story. Yeah. And be basically circum down to, and the judge can ask you questions and they do.

A lot of times.

Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. You know. And the, the financials, I would say for an equitable distribution trial or an ALNY trial, it's real important to have that testimony. Not nec, I think custody's just completely different. But for those financial ones, we want you to look at all the documents. Exactly. Be prepared, know what this [00:18:00] document is, know what number we're looking at.

There's so many times where, you know. I've seen people in court and the opposing counsel didn't practice with their client at all, and they're like, what balance was it on this day? And they're like flipping through all these papers and can't read like a bank statement all of a sudden. And it's a disaster and it looks sloppy.

Yeah, I agree. So when it comes, it's not as, you know, we don't talk about the financial cases as much on here. Right. But yeah, those are just as important to really be familiar with the documents. You have to get an appraisal, be familiar with the appraisal, if there's business documents in there that you're absolutely not familiar with, right.

To have, sit down with your attorney and learn what's important, what numbers to focus on, and make that case go as smoothly as you can for the judge. 'cause those are the ones that gives the judges headaches. Right.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Because I look to us to do the numbers. I don't wanna do the math thing. Right. They make us do the math thing, so

Sarah J. Hink: Right.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: We wanna make sure we get all that evidence in. Yeah. And um, court could be. Or it could be long, you know, you're there for two or three days. Yep. And if you're there for two or three days, it is rare that a judge is, you know, if you're a [00:19:00] law and order, you're either guilty or not. At the end of the trial,

Cameron Heinsohn: right at the end of the 30 minute episode here, you could wait

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: three months, six

Cameron Heinsohn: months.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: I've had to wait almost a year for orders and that. So don't expect, unless it's like a temporary order to come out. With a, a ruling that day sometimes. And that's hard for people. They've invested all that and they want it over.

Sarah J. Hink: Yeah.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: You know?

Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. And don't, if you get a ruling, don't. You know, slam your fist on the table.

Please

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: don't, and don't try to talk to the judge. I say, can I tell you? No,

Sarah J. Hink: don't do that. I've seen some bad things. I know

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: it's

Sarah J. Hink: been bad. None of my clients have far knock on the lead there, this wood. But yeah, I've seen some pretty, and the judges, remember, I've been in a hearing, oh, they remember like, oh sir, I remember you from last time and you stormed out of this court.

That's not, is not a good sign. It's

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: good if it's on the other side, it's good for you. But yeah, and the other end thing, and people can represent themselves. So if, if my client, if I'm, if I'm representing my client, I think it's very important to make sure in the hearing prep you explain to them he, he can ask you questions.

Cameron Heinsohn: Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: You know, even [00:20:00] if there's A-D-V-P-O in place, he can ask you questions.

Cameron Heinsohn: Yeah.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Do not bite back. Do not get mad. You know, just tell the truth. Keep your keep. 'cause they're gonna try to get you, they know how to push your buttons. Yeah.

Cameron Heinsohn: You know, that's why

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: you're

Cameron Heinsohn: not married anymore probably.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Right. So I think that's another.

Important part. I can't think of anything. Do you do anything different? Anything else in a, in a, like a trial prep

Sarah J. Hink: experience? Yeah. I just, you know, look over the exhibits right. To make sure they're familiar with the exhibits. Go over what potential exhibits the other side might have. Right. How to respond to the other attorney when they're asking you questions.

Mm-hmm. Never interrupt the judge. They hate that. Yep. They do. And whenever there's an objection to stop talking. Yep. They don't like that either. So what does, what does, um, sustain mean? That means that whatever objection the other the attorney made is like, kind of like granted, I guess you would say.

Like if they object to hearsay you know, motion to strike, then the judge that the

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: objection's made. Stop talking.

Sarah J. Hink: Stop talking. Sustained. Move on the other attorney, whoever's [00:21:00] question you can Right. You can't answer

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: that question. Right,

Sarah J. Hink: right, right.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: And it's hard to, I mean, it's hard. I've never been a witness before, so I don't know what it feels like up there.

But you, I think I would be nervous if I was up there.

Cameron Heinsohn: It was a little like, was it nerve wracking? Yeah. And it was like, maybe it was a quiet day. We, we were the only, our crew were the only ones in there that day. Well, those two days. Um, and so but I mean, you're, you're kind of up there Yeah. And you're on stage.

Yeah. And so you're sort of, you know, there is a little bit of pressure. Um, but, I had a chance to think about what I wanted to say. Right. And so, um, and, and think about what the other attorney was probably gonna ask me, um, and was ready for that. So Oh, good. Because I knew that they, like, you know, as a character witness for a custody case, right.

And so I knew that they were gonna poke at me at the fact that I don't have kids. So like, who am I to speak? Right? And so I was ready with that answer. Um, so did

Sarah J. Hink: they ask you that? Or say anything about that. They didn't. They're like,

Cameron Heinsohn: oh, you, but you don't [00:22:00] have children, do you? Oh my gosh.

Sarah J. Hink: I would never

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: could sort of imagine

Cameron Heinsohn: who, nobody

Sarah J. Hink: would ask

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: you

Sarah J. Hink: that question.

That's insane. I always try to be super nice to character

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: witnesses. I dunno. I do too Well sometimes I do. Yeah.

Cameron Heinsohn: I just sort of looked a little sad and said, no, I haven't been blessed in that way. Yeah. And they didn't ask me any more questions after that. That's so ugly.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: I I would never love that.

Cameron Heinsohn: Yeah.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: So we do do Harry Prep with our, with our character witnesses.

You know, it's on the phone, but. Um, I just think it's malpractice, but somebody will stand and not have a conversation with them and help them understand the process. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah.

Sarah J. Hink: There we are. Ain't that some shit? Shit.

[00:23:00]